[Drake]

Ok, so yesterday we took a closer look at Loki, who caused Baldar's death, so I feel it only fitting today to take a look at Frigg who tried to prevent Baldar's Death

As the wife of Odin, Frigg is one of the foremost goddesses of Norse mythology. She is the patron of marriage and motherhood, and the goddess of love and fertility. In that aspect she shows many similarities with Freya, of whom she possibly is a different form.

She has a reputation of knowing every person's destiny, but never unveils it. As the mother of Balder, she tried to prevent his death by extracting oaths from every object in nature, but neglected the mistletoe. And by a fig made from mistletoe Balder died. Her hall in Asgard is Fensalir ("water halls"). Frigg's messenger is Gna, who rides through the sky on the horse Hofvarpnir. In some myths she was rumored to have had love affairs with Odin's brothers Ve and Vili.

An interesting topic of discussion about this, in my opinion, is the question of whether or not it arrogance that lead Frigg to discount the mistletoe, or was there some other reason? Given that she knows every person's destiny would she not have known that the mistletoe would kill Baldar? Just a thought anyway.





I'm not sure what this picture is all about, I don't recall Frigg being a triple goddess figure but I could be wrong. If anything though it's at least a different interpretation from most of the other pictures out there.






Enjoy

Drake

[hooligan]

An interesting topic of discussion about this, in my opinion, is the question of whether or not it arrogance that lead Frigg to discount the mistletoe, or was there some other reason?  Given that she knows every person's destiny would she not have known that the mistletoe would kill Baldar?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it may have been more of an expression of the inescapability of fate. No matter what the lengths she went to in order to protect him, he was fated to die and to return for Ragnarok. Ragnarok itself is an example of this, a fate which is known but unavoidable. Frigga had to try though it's her maternal duty.

Crap, I don't think I am going to be able to find a comic of Frigga.

[Drake]

Personally I view it as her being arrogant. After all Baldar is a god, how can a simple little plant such as a mistletoe hurt him? But that's just me. While the gods can die, and has happened many times in various myth's, and will happened again when Ragnarok comes, in the meantime you know as well as I that one of the benifits of being a god is being damn near immortal, and the gods know this.

Anyway that's my opinion.

Drake

[WrittenDreams]

Frigg is the daughter of Fjorgyn, who this Fjorgyn was is not known. Fjorgyn means "earth" so her father, Fjorgyn, could very well be the earth. This shows the close relationship between Frigg and the earth, and it’s even thought that Frigg was originally the earth. This is very likely considering that men have always thought of the earth as Odins wife. Frigg is the mother of Baldur, and is often thought of as still mourning for him. She is a seeress, who knows all fates, though she seldom speaks of them.
The name Frigg in fact means "the one who loves", which suits her well, because of her role as the patron goddess of love and marriage. Frigg was like many goddesses giddy, and there was one time when Odin could not take it any more and left her. Except from this, has their marriage been successful. Odin shares his high-seat hlidskjalf and wisdom with her. He also tells her the things he can not tell anyone else. Sometimes they quarrel over men they want to choose (Einherjar), then usually Frigg tricks Odin to choose the one she wants. Frigg often takes Odin’s brothers Vili and Ve as husbands during Odin’s journeys away from Asgard.

Frigg is especially concerned with keeping social order. She is called on for blessings when women are giving birth and for help in matters of traditional women’s crafts (spinning, weaving, cooking and sewing) and the magics worked thereby. Frigg can also be called on by mothers who want to protect their children in olden days. This was especially the case with sons going out to battle, for whom their mothers would weave or sew special protective items, also called Hlin (protectress).

Just a wee bit more information about her. Hope no one minds. I would assume, as is the downfall of almost every god that dies, arrogance was key in proving that destiny is inescapable. I believe that you are both correct.

[hooligan]

Both a lesson about fate and about hubris, good thinking.

[Drake]

The wonderful thing about mythology is that it can be educational in so many different ways.

Drake

[hooligan]

On the Frigga-Freyja issue, what are your thoughts? I would say that the two most likely scenarios are that either they were two separate deities from two separate peoples (this goes along with the Indo-European migration idea I presented yesterday), or that they were at one point one diety, but as the Norse expanded and migrated there were gradual changes which caused the diety to branch off into two fairly distinct versions similar to the way language changes through time.

You have to wonder if something similar happened in Rome. Helios and Apollo are both sun gods, Artemis and Selene are both associated with the Moon (to diferent extents). I can see a scenario where tow previously separate cultures come together and they are like:

Cultist 1: "Hey, whose your god of war?"
Cultist 2: "ABC"
Cultist 1: "Cool, our is XYZ. XYZ uses a bow"
Cultist 2: "ABC uses a spear"
Cultist 1: "Oh, well XYZ must be the god of archery"
Cultist 2: "Yeah, ABC must be the god of spearmanship"

See where I am going with this? In the Frigga-Freyja model, both groups had a mother goddess(or whatever) and when they met they obviously couldn't have two mother goddesses, so one took on the role of goddess of love and fertility and the other marriage and motherhood.

[WrittenDreams]

Norse Mythology is something I actually have a bit more experience with in the realm of reality. Frigg is Freya or Frejya or... its just a language thing. My name is the perfect example.

Kateryina is the modernized version. As is Katherine or Catherine. In Gaelic it is Catriona.

Murray is the modern name of my clan. Mhorhaidh is the Gaelic translation of that name. And there are other variants like MacMurchay.. and about a dozen different others. All of this came about based on the intermingling of cultures and names. There are identical stories for Freya and Frigg. Women in the norse culture who were of surpassing beauty and/or kindness were Friggblessed or Freya born.

Hope that came across clearly.

[hooligan]

Probably right, the similarity in sound suggests that they are the same (just different). There are however myths in which both appear as separate entities, which sort of confuses things. I will see if I can find one.

PS: My spelling (Frigga and Freyja), is the one I am use to. I don't mean to imply that it is better or more right in any way.

[WrittenDreams]

PS: My spelling (Frigga and Freyja), is the one I am use to. I don't mean to imply that it is better or more right in any way.

Exactly. Its what you know. Where as I know her mostly as Frigg. No A at the end. If you find one example of the mythos where she is portrayed as two seperate entities I would love to see it personally as I never have. Language can make a simple point seem overly complex. Something always gets lost in translation and therefor perhaps we are inaccurate in our subjective opinions on mythologies and tales. Perhaps they were originally two seperate beings but sisters of a sort and that explains why they are so similar.

[Drake]

I could be totally wrong in this thought here but let me throw it out there and we can see what ya'll think.

Commonly many societies that have a pantheon of many deities have a few gods and goddess that have three forms. This is seen in modern day Catholicis with the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" A simple way to put it with females is The Maiden, Mother, and Crone aspects. The picture above with Frigg looking like a death deity could be showing her in a Crone aspect. Typically these aspects do not have the same names, though sometimes the names are similar. So it is fully possible that Frigg is the Mother Aspect, and Freyja is the Maiden aspect, as for the crone typically since the crone is involved with old age and/or death there quite a few norse goddesses that could hold that honor.

Like I said above though, I don't recall Frigg being part of a holy trinity but I am not an end all be able source of information.

Drake

[hooligan]

Here is a section of the Flyting of Loki (part of the Poetic Edda):

Frigg spake:
27. "If a son like Baldr | were by me now,
Here within Ægir's hall,
From the sons of the gods | thou shouldst go not forth
Till thy fierceness in fight were tried."

Loki spake:
28. "Thou wilt then, Frigg, | that further I tell
Of the ill that now I know;
Mine is the blame | that Baldr no more
Thou seest ride home to the hall."

Freyja spake:
29. "Mad art thou, Loki, | that known thou makest
The wrong and shame thou hast wrought;
The fate of all | does Frigg know well,
Though herself she says it not."

Not that this proves anything except that maybe the confusion has been around a long time.

[WrittenDreams]

Beautiful poetry. I could not find any reference aside from a very wrong statement about friday the thirteenth. Perhaps there is some confusion as Freyr is also the name of Frigg's brother in certain languages. No evidence of a trinity aside from her servants. I will find their names and post them here. There seems to be only duality in Frigg as far as evidence supports. Perhaps Freyja is Freyr and Frigg and Frigga are one.

Freyr, (aka Frey (Norse), Frea (Anglo-Saxon), Froh (German), Frodi (Danish), Yngvi) is called the "God of the World". He is the Scandinavian God of sun and rain, peace and war, and the patron of a bountiful harvest. He is the son of Njörd, and the brother of Freya. He married the beautiful giantess Gerd. Freyr rides in a chariot which is pulled by the golden boar Gullinbursti. He also owns the ship Skidbladnir ("wooden-bladed"), and owns a magick, phallic sword which unsheathes itself and wreaks havoc on the field of battle.
Freyr is called "beautiful", and will be the first to die at Ragnarok. Freyr is invoked for peace and prosperity as well as the releasing of fetters.

[hooligan]

Part of the problem may also be Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Prose Edda (or Snorra Edda). He seems to consider Frigga and Freyja as two separate people. And since the Prose Edda is what was used by many modern authors of Norse Mythology it only follows that they would make the same assumption.

From the "The Deluding of Gylfi" part of the Prose Edda

Then Gangleri asked:
'What goddesses are there?'


High One replied:
'The foremost is Frigg. She owns that dwelling known as Fensalir, and it is most magnificent.
'Saga is another; she lives at Sökkvabekk, and that is a large estate.
'The third is Eir; she is the best of physicians.
'The fourth is Gefjon; she is a virgin, and women who die unmarried serve her.
'The fifth is Fulla; she, too, is a virgin and wears her hair loose and a golden band round her head. She carries Frigg's little box and looks after her shoes and knows her secrets.
Freyja is as distinguished as Frigg. She is married to a man called Óð; their daughter is Hnoss; she is so lovely that whatever is beautiful and valuable is called "treasure" from her name(hnoss is Old Icelandic for ‘treasure’).
Óð went away on long journeys and Freyja weeps for him, and her tears are red gold. Freyja has many names, and the reason for this is that she gave herself several when she went to look for Óð among peoples she did not know. She is called Mardöll and Hörn, Gefn (Giver) and Sýr (Sow). Freyja owns the necklace of the Brísings. She is also called the divinity of the Vanir.
'The seventh goddess is Sjöfn; she is much concerned with turning the minds of people, both men and women, to love. From her name love is called sjafni.

[Eidon]

Well actually reffering to the comment under the picture, you have to understand that Odin had two forms, and really even though depicted as a man, was actually a women. The picture probably consider's the relationship regarding the three most worshipped God's in all our time, the dark haired women behind Frigg being Jord or Jorth who is also considered Gaia in Greek mythology. The other girl infront of Frigg actually being Odin, or probably more or less the moon goddess. In some way's her name is Odin derived from Frigg's actual name given to her by Jorth, Eidon(also spelled Eden or even Edin). Odin happily took him name in retrospect of her name.

As for the killing or death of Baldar, you're considering too much, more myth than actuallity. Baldar was Frigg's favorite child, and she loved him, his death occured because of the war being faught back then, Frigg didn't beleive in sex, and therefore those that had sex were casted away. Baldar died as a result of believing in his mother, arrogance wasn't even a factor back then, it didn't exist, so you are wrong on the assumption that it was arrogance. Her not being able to save Baldar was due mostly to our inability to actually create war, or harm someone.

[Whizbang]

Edit Again: Before reading this I did not realize this thread was so old so sorry if I accidentaly bumped it back to the top of the list haha.

All Right I am going to try and answer a lot of the questions you have posed in this thread and try to correct you on some things. This may be a long post.

Well actually reffering to the comment under the picture, you have to understand that Odin had two forms, and really even though depicted as a man, was actually a women.

As for the killing or death of Baldar, you're considering too much, more myth than actuallity. Baldar was Frigg's favorite child, and she loved him, his death occured because of the war being faught back then, Frigg didn't beleive in sex, and therefore those that had sex were casted away. Baldar died as a result of believing in his mother, arrogance wasn't even a factor back then, it didn't exist, so you are wrong on the assumption that it was arrogance. Her not being able to save Baldar was due mostly to our inability to actually create war, or harm someone.

Your first sentence if WAY off. Odin a woman? Where are you getting this information? There are over 150 names for Odin alone two of which are Father of the Slain and All-Father. He was very much a male. Loki was the only one in the myths to changes sexes, to my knowledge, he is the mother of Sleipneir, Odin's horse.

Your second paragraph is basically correct. Everyone loved Baldur, well everyone except Loki, he was the most beautiful of all the gods. There was no war at that point, Baldur's death was one of the first signs that Ragnarok was approaching.

Part of the problem may also be Snorri Sturluson who wrote the Prose Edda (or Snorra Edda). He seems to consider Frigga and Freyja as two separate people. And since the Prose Edda is what was used by many modern authors of Norse Mythology it only follows that they would make the same assumption.

Frigg and Freyja are two seperate dieties. Freyja is of the Vanir clan that joined the Aesir have the first war. It is very funny that you would say the problem is Snorri Sturluson because Snorri is basically the only source on Norse Myth besides the Poetic Edda.

I think it may have been more of an expression of the inescapability of fate. No matter what the lengths she went to in order to protect him, he was fated to die and to return for Ragnarok. Ragnarok itself is an example of this, a fate which is known but unavoidable. Frigga had to try though it's her maternal duty.

I quoted that because it is perfect. I would use that in an essay.

After all Baldar is a god, how can a simple little plant such as a mistletoe hurt him?

What you said is correct and that was Frigg's thinking when she took the oaths that nothing would be able to hurt him.
This is from Gylfaginning (The Deluding of Gylfi) part of Snorri's Edda.

Frigg took oaths that Baldr would not be harmed by fire and water, iron and all kinds of metal, stones, the earth, trees, diseases, animals, birds, poisons and snakes. When this was done and became known, Baldr and the AEsir tok to amusing themselves by having Baldr stand in front of all the others at the assembly while some would shoot at him... Whatever was done caused him no injury, and all thought this remarkable...Frigg answered, "A shoot of wood grows to the west of Valhalla. It is called mistletoe, and it seemed to young for me to demand its oath."

She had the same thoughts you did when concerning mistletoe. It was to young and harmless to hurt him. But Loki got a hold of this information and mad her pay because thats just what he does. I added the part where they shoot stuff at Baldr for entertainment because I find it funny.

Anyways thats my slight rant to corrected some common misconceptions in Norse Mythology I saw in this thread. I hope thats OK and will probably be active in the others soon.

Edit: Slight Edit I just looked at the pictures. I think the picture of Frigg where you make the comment of her being the triple goddess. I think that is actually a picture of the norns (the fates) Urd, Verdandi and Skuld.

This post has been edited by Whizbang: 28 January 2009 - 06:04 PM

[n9zee]

Edit Again: Before reading this I did not realize this thread was so old so sorry if I accidentaly bumped it back to the top of the list haha.

Don't worry about it. If you thought something was wrong and needed correcting, then by all means, post away!